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Talk:Marc Gené

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WikiProject class rating

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

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Current information regarding Marc Gené's origins is redundant. Being Catalan implicitly means being Spanish. As well as being Scottish implies being British: [1] (for instance). Furthermore the flag icon under his picture, already clarifies any posible misunderstanding regarding the state where he was born. On the other hand, being Spanish does not necessarily imply being catalan. Hence, the clarification Spanish should be removed to avoid tediously reading.--Civit cardona (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sub-national or regional identities do not count as nationalities. Catalonia is not a passport-issuing country that you can be a citizen of, and Gené has raced under the flag of Spain throughout his career. This also applies to Scotland / UK in every case regarding racing drivers. The situation regarding actors etc is outside the F1 Wikiproject. As far as racing drivers are concerned, the best way to address the situation (if you want to) is to say that Gené is a Spanish racing driver from Catalonia. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I want to address it.
First of all Spanish law has recognizText en cursivaed Catalonia as nationality:
Spanish law recognises the autonomous communities of Andalusia, Aragón, Catalonia, Valencia, Galicia and the Basque Country as "nationalities" (Nacionalidades).[[2]]. Then it can be used.
Regarding passport-issuing, could you explain how is this fact related to our discussion? What does it have to do his passport with his origins? Please point out any--Civit cardona (talk) 07:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC) guideline from WikiProject Formula One about this.[reply]
About the comparison with an actor, I was looking for an example of consensus and I think this is a good one, even if it is not from F1 racing driver. His origins are clear enough, since anyone is always able to check what does mean being Scottish or Catalan.
I guess you didn't open a discussion in De la Rosa talk page to avoid duplicating messages/POV. Hence I suggest changes here have to be performed there in the same way.--Civit cardona (talk) 14:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish law is not relevant to the English language Wikipedia, firstly. In international law, Catalonia is not a country. All kinds of national law applies all over the world regarding nationhood and independence, but this is not always recognised internationally. Re: passport-issuing: if a region does not issue a passport, then you cannot be a citizen of that region. Spain issues passports, Catalonia does not - therefore the citizenship is of Spain. Both Gené and de la Rosa have always raced under the Spanish flag with Spanish licences.
With regard to guidelines, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) states that nationality refers to "the country of which the person is a citizen or national", in this case and that of Pedro de la Rosa, that is Spain. It is not a question of origins, but of citizenship. For British people, it says there is no clear consensus, and so with regard to F1 drivers the F1 Wikiproject thrashed out an agreement that became a clear and long-standing consensus with regard to British racing drivers. With regard to your last point, I saw the de la Rosa page first, edited there, then I saw this discussion - that is why I didn't discuss there. I don't see what POV has to do with anything. As I said before, I don't see a problem with saying that they are Spanish racing drivers from Catalonia, but Spain must be mentioned. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to add that I can see no real problem with how this article reads at the moment, i.e. "Spanish Catalan racing driver", or with how the issue is addressed at Oriol Servià. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish law is not relevant to the English language Wikipedia, firstly. It's an argument. Oftenly used when people tend to mix concepts such country, nation and state. I recommend you to take a look to these links.
In international law, Catalonia is not a country. Please point out your sources. I think it matches the definition.[3]
Ok. I'm not going to start a "war" against previous consensus, even if I think they are incorrectly stated (that is, incorrect use of the word "country") and even if I don't get the point of mixing sovereign states in a competition such as F1, a competition between motor-racing teams.
Then I propose to use the Oriol Servià's "template" for all these three drivers. Since it seems ok for everybody.--Civit cardona (talk) 07:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I can circumvent your obfuscation of the matter, I think you know what we're talking about here - it's List of sovereign states, and Catalonia is not on there. The words state/country/nation are not clearly delineated within common usage, and in English at least, "state" and "country" are commonly interchangeable. When talking about nationality, we are not talking about people being born in autonomous or semi-autonomous communities. We are talking about independent sovereign states that are not subdivisions of other states. Catalonia is patently a subdivision of Spain, a widely recognised sovereign state. The point of sovereign states in F1 is that, like most sports, each driver represents his sovereign state, not any subdivision of one. I am in agreement with the idea to use Servià's article as a basis for the other two, and I don't think anyone will protest. Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You may call it obfuscation. That depends on your POV. I guess someone born in Northern Ireland or Tibet would have call it "properly editing". Anyway, as I said I'm not going to teach the whole wikipedia community this difference. Hence I will apply our agreement to the other articles. Cheers, --Civit cardona (talk) 08:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My view is a POV, like your view is a POV, and like the view of the person born in Northern Ireland or Tibet is a POV. To one editor, they are Northern Irish and Tibetan, to another editor they are British and Chinese - neither is incorrect and it can be a delicate and sensitive matter for both sides. It's POV vs. POV like much of Wikipedia, but unlike much of Wikipedia, here we have found a compromise. Cheers, Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The second one works but the first one doesn't, so I have replaced it with a different reference. DH85868993 (talk) 09:54, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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